I came across a group site for my high school graduating class of 1966 in Clawson, Michigan. Didn't participate much but enjoyed the "whatever happened to" section and did catch up with some old friends.
One of my classmates, Sharon Shorter, mentioned that she was undergoing cancer treatments. I offered her words of hope and encouragement while others offered their prayers.
This is what ensued:
Bud wrote:
Um, guys? Forgive me for this but, do you really think prayer can cure cancer? I mean, if that were the case, couldn't we just skip those horrific treatments and their nasty side-effects? And please help me out here because I'm really not sure exactly what prayer means. Is it sending a telepathic message to a supreme being asking Him/Her/It to intervene in the natural outcome of things? Or is it more like making a wish before blowing out the candles on a birthday cake? Or is it like crossing your fingers or rubbing a rabbit's foot for good luck? Or is it simply a figure of speech that means, "I wish you well"?
And before you get your backs up, please realize that these are sincere questions. If anyone has any insight into this odd custom, please opine for me. I'm afraid I just don't get it.
Naomi wrote:
Bud,
I have no problem with your question. It is a concern of many people with a wide variety of understandings, experiences, and opinions. It is a potentially confusing and argumentative issue because it is part and parcel of the whole "religion" spectrum. I must say right off that one's experience with prayer and understanding of what prayer is or what prayer can accomplish depends on one's level of religious understanding and one's relationship to God.
Do we believe in a personal God with whom we can have a genuine relationship, or do we suppose God to be an impersonal force or being that observes but does not interfere with what's going on in time and space? Do we live by the tenets of the Bible, or do we practice another faith or no faith? Are we religious, but with no specific authoritative allegiance?
I can only speak from personal experience - from a Christian perspective. For a Christian who has put his faith and trust in Jesus as his personal savior, prayer is communion and fellowship with God. God promises to answer prayer. He does not promise to heal cancer or stop wars or make me a millionaire. If my life is generally in line with his will for me, then I have the assurance of the Bible that he will hear my prayers. That does not mean he will automatically grant my desire. If what I am asking is not in harmony with what he wants for me, he will not grant what I ask.
Some folks with a different conception of God may find comfort in their meditation, their musings, or their mantras whether they believe in a personal, caring deity or not.
There is so much that could be said on the subject, Bud, and I would be happy to discuss it further with you. If you would like to pursue the subject, feel free to contact me directly at xxxxxxxx@juno.com.
Fran wrote:
Very well said, Naomi.
Linda wrote:
Wow Bud, you are brave opening up this subject.
I was on an elevator with two women. One said to the other that she knew she was going to win the lottery that night because she prayed to God to grant it to her and God says “ask and you shall receive”. God does hear and answer all of our prayers and because we don’t always get what we want we may think he isn’t listening. God does promise to take care of all of our worldly needs (not wants) and we should come to Him in all things. In return we must praise and give thanks to Him. What we can’t do is test God, say by standing in the middle of the expressway claiming that our faith will keep us from getting hit by a car.
We cannot understand all that God is and I don’t find creation any more perplexing than evolution so I’m going to stick with creation. I have seen God work in my life and I am grateful for my Christian upbringing.
To answer your question, my interpretation of prayer is simply communicating with God, petitioning, praising, and giving thanks with the conviction that God is listening.
On a medical note, my Mom was taken off of dialysis, as she no longer needed it, my brother called it a miracle. God does do miracles.
I think it is great that you asked and I hope you get some insight from your responses.
Char wrote:
Hi Bud,
I agree with both Naomi and Linda. I have lived by faith in Jesus Christ most of my life and I pray to God all the time. As compared to most people I have had a good life. Has God always answered my prayers the way I have wanted, no. But he has taken very good care of my needs and blessed me with a wonderful husband who has also lived a life of a strong faith in God. I would love to invite you to our church sometime, we are very close to where you live. It is in Ortonville, Hillside Bible Church, 173 Church St. We have an awesome pastor and great music which you would appreciate, an entire band, drums and all. If you are interested go on our website www.hillsidebible.org. We are a cool church with lots of people who pray and trust God. Right now God has me in a waiting room, sometimes he chooses that for us when we pray for something specific.
I do believe God can heal cancer and many other nasty diseases. But how does He answer every prayer, yes, no or wait. But like Linda said, it is very important to praise Him even if the answer is no. Because He has a reason and He is in control, it is up to us to reach out to Him. One day every person on this earth will answer to God, for all the times we failed Him. By living a life that is not pleasing or glorifying Him, is failure in His eyes. But if you just live for Him, he will definitely bless you.
Blessings onto all of you, and especially Sharon who has suffered so much with this cancer, but look at the life God has blessed her with, the ability to travel and do things most of us will never do. Sharon, stay strong and trust Him through this trial.
Bud wrote:
Naomi,
Thank you for your calm and lucid response. You've expressed your convictions well. And I agree that people have different levels of belief. However, the concept of prayer remains an enigma to me.
I spent hours preparing an essay soundly debunking religion with irrefutable logic. My focus was in establishing incontrovertible facts. But after re-reading my missive I didn't like the tone it had taken, using dismissive words like delusion, escapist fantasy, gullibility, backward thinking, pathetic superstitions, ignorance, hypocrisy, lies, intolerance, bigotry, dark ages, folly, etc. My tone was high-handed and haughty. Who am I to ridicule those who embrace mysticism?
Our perception of reality can be no better than the gauges we use to measure it. Some people think it's good enough to be sincere and conscientious. But we need to consider this: No amount of sincerity or conscientiousness can make up for not having the facts. And how many of our decisions are based upon erroneous information? How many times do we act on incorrect information simply because it's one of those things that "everybody knows"? Well, everybody can be wrong. Mark Twain admonished: "Get your facts first and then you can distort them as much as you please."
We're always entitled to our opinions, but we're not entitled to be wrong in our facts. Being sincere is of little value if we're sincerely wrong. While I consider the concept of religion to be far-fetched, outlandish, and preposterous, it would be wrong of me to ridicule those who embrace it.
As human beings, we need a philosophy. And we have to choose whether to define our philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and logical deliberation -- or let our subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, contradictions, wishes, doubts and fears.
If I ridicule those who adopt religious dogma, I forfeit my claim to the moral higher ground. And I guess I’d be a hypocrite acting only from my own self-interest.
Your kind invitation to discuss this matter in greater depth is generous but I know it would be an exhausting exercise in futility…for both of us.
I wish you well.
To Sharon and others who may be following this; I apologize for hijacking this thread. I was wrong to do it and should have known better.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming…
Naomi wrote:
Bud, reading your response I can understand why prayer remains an enigma to you. I appreciate your honesty and please take this as being sent with all sincerity, we will continue to pray for you.
Garry wrote:
Bud,
Thanks for your honest and open views. Too often people on both sides of such questions have their minds made up and dismiss any view that doesn't fit their own philosophy. My background and perspective is also a Christian one, and I can assure you that a lot of Christians wrestle with the same questions. I believe God hears and answers prayer, but He isn't an automatic gimme machine. If He were. I wouldn't be here (in Clawson/Royal Oak for the next week) getting my folks settled in assisted living with several health care issues. The apostle Paul had many miraculous experiences, but lived out his life with a physical infirmity that was never healed. The short answer (for me) is that when God doesn't answer our prayers it's because He has something better for us. Sometimes "better" is hard to believe, but I do know that adversity often brings out the best in people. Many times we never see the "silver lining". You can call it faith, or you can call it delusion, but I'd still take it over the alternative.
On the personal side, right now the only positives I see in my parents' situation is the massive outpouring of support they are receiving from people whose lives they've touched over the past decades, and the dedication of people in the elder care community. My sisters have been a tremendous help too, but without faith in God, I don't think I could handle it.
Keep looking, Bud, and keep your mind open. Ask God to reveal Himself to you, and I believe you'll find the answer you're looking for.
P.S. Is there a way to move this whole discussion to a different thread? I'm sure there are others who'd like to chime in, and some who'd just as soon skip it.
Judy wrote:
Your wish is my command.
Bud wrote:
Garry,
I appreciate your candor and non-judgmental tone. However, I need to clear up a couple of things. I'm not wrestling with any questions within myself. I was merely curious to see if someone had some insight into why people adopt illogical beliefs. But your statement that you don't know if you could handle life's sorrows without faith in God just might explain it. Thank you for that.
Also, you say "keep looking". Garry, I found my answers a long, long time ago. I'm very fortunate to have a gratifying sense of self. I know my station in life and not only do I accept it, I enjoy it. And if I could change anything about my life, well, I wouldn't. Sure, I have plenty of faults but I've come to accept them and always try to do my best.
Suggesting that I should "try" Christianity is like suggesting I try changing my eye color, my gender, my place of birth...you get the idea.
Again, thanks for your input.
Garry wrote:
Bud,
Thanks for clarifying your position. It may be possible to force or coerce religion on someone, but you can't really change a person's faith that way. Dialogue like the one you started is a huge step toward understanding each other, and I thank you for taking that step. I'm still learning, and hope I continue to do so.
Judy wrote:
This seems to be a one sided debate, where are Bud’s allies in this GREAT dialogue? Come on, don't be shy! Lets hear from YOU too. Who’s as brave as Bud?
Bud wrote:
Judy,
I wouldn't expect to find many allies in a discussion such as this since only about fifteen percent of Americans are truly secular. I'm just relieved that I haven't been subjected to a sound drubbing. It wasn't long ago that I would have been dragged into the public square for a merciless stoning. But I've sensed no acrimony and am impressed with the level of tolerance shown to me. I've also been very impressed by the high level of eloquence and civility displayed here, especially from Naomi and Garry. My hat is off to both of you and I'm honored to have your association.
I believe Garry is correct when saying that people can be indoctrinated into a religion but rarely can they be coerced out of it. People who turn their backs on religion normally come to their decision after a long process of soul searching and self-discovery. It rarely comes as an epiphany or sudden realization. And rarely does it come at all. In my case, religion was never there to begin with. When some childhood pal told me I'd go to hell for not attending church, my mom said, "Different people believe different things. I believe that you're a good boy and nothing bad will ever happen to you". Well, that seems like an impossible promise but guess what...she's been right so far. Knock on wood?
It has become obvious to me over the years that religion is very important to those who embrace it. I guess the reasons for that don't really matter. If it brings people comfort and solace, then it just may be a worthwhile pursuit. But when it becomes a vehicle for imposing group wills on "other" people to get them to comply with their "standards", it causes strife, intolerance, and even hatred. Tyranny almost always starts by targeting a group of opponents or social "undesirables" (often in the name of "a war on X" or " the crisis of Y"). Once accepted by the public, it can engulf whole populations. That's what worries me about religious groups. Pick up any newspaper today, and you'll find many examples of religious leaders who preach love, peace, and compassion but who fan the flames of hatred and invoke the name of God to legitimize their brutal conflicts.
But enough of that. This has been a rare opportunity for me to air my thoughts on the subject and you've been very patient, gracious and kind. I know that the twain will n'er meet. Parallel lines never do cross over. I can accept that. And apparently, so can you.
Thanks, all.
Bonnie wrote:
Hi everyone,
It is very interesting this subject has come up at this time which I think is a real blessing! In Philippians 2:13 it says "For it is God which workest in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure". I love this verse because God is saying He wills and He is the one who works inside us (without our help) through the Holy Spirit to do and it has nothing to do with you going to church every Sunday.(although hearing the Word does strengthen you) and we are to fellowship with other Christians. We cannot be saved by any works that we do at all! We are not puppets, though, and He does allow us to make choices but He is in control at all times. He knew us even before we were in our mothers wombs. God is not on our time clock, He is on His Time. I have developed blepharospasm which makes my eyelid muscles spasm and my mouth muscles spasm. When my eyes spasm, I can't drive much or walk without my eyes closing and I am at that point essentially blind. I have not been working for about a month and a half and may have to go on disability. But I believe God has healed my body and pray to Him about it all the time as well as praying for others for healing for it is God's will for us to pray and He will do things in His time. Now, in Deuteronomy 28:61 It says" that the Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law which the Law stated many sicknesses and curses, until you are destroyed. But in Galatians 3:13 it says" that Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone that has hung on the tree (the cross). That is the whole believe and faith system of our Jesus Christ who said it is finished as He took our place on the cross and died for our sins. Sickness no longer has dominion over us, none! God gave everyone a measure of faith and if you believe that Jesus came from Heaven, died on the cross for our sins, rose from the grave, you will be saved. For you will repent for your sins as we all have sined and live forever. Now, what happens here on Earth really is just like a grain of sand in time. We are to look forward to having eternal life. But here on Earth we are either serving God or serving the devil, it is our choice. God Bless you and may Jesus be glorified in everything that you do.
Bud wrote:
Wow! I'm speechless! That's a change, eh? I think it's time for me to stand down.
Judy wrote:
One day when a group of my friends were out to lunch and having one of those psychological discussions as this group of us often do, (this particular time about Heaven), Henry said something like: “I don’t believe that I am smart enough to know if there is an after life.” One of the other people, who knows Henry well, commented back saying: “Isn't it better to accept Jesus just in case there is”. In Henry's despair, he said, “That would be rather hypocritical of me, don’t you think?”
Henry is much like Bud, and very much like me. It is SO VERY hard for many people to believe that there REALLY are people in this world that DO NOT want salvation (as defined in the traditional Christian sect). It’s equally difficult for many people to ACCEPT that those same people are truly blessed in life, feel joy within, and are surrounded by peace & love each and every day of their lives, and do/feel all of this without “being Saved”, “accepting Christ”, or “embracing the Holy Spirit”.
Discussions such as we are having here are great; they give everyone the opportunity to see, feel and hear differences. We get to be open and maybe even acceptant of others. When we really listen and hear what a person is feeling, saying and expressing, we than become that truly loving, caring, and empathic species we were meant to be.
Bud said: “It has become obvious to me over the years that religion is very important to those who embrace it. It brings comfort and solace to many”.
This is so very true!!!! And the same is true for those of us who believe “differently”. We can and do find comfort and solace equally, in our own beliefs. We truly do not need prayer. Those of us who believe differently do so by choice. With great respect to those offering; we do not need or want prayers. When Bud was asking, “what prayer means”, he was not seeking salvation, but with great anguish it kept coming. Somehow people think we secretly want salvation. This for me, is sad!!!
My father taught Sunday school until he was 30 years old, was raised Mennonite and embraced the Baptist Church as an adult; his nephew was a minister, his niece played the organ in church, and his entire family continue to follow the church doctrines to this day. My mother was raised Baptist, her brother, her cousin, and her uncle were/are all ministers and many of her cousins are faithful followers of the Christian Reform Church today. Her sister played the organ in church and her entire family also continues to be faithful followers of the Christian doctrine. As a result of my background, my knowledge, and my environment, I fully understand what many of you are saying here, I was raised with it and am knowledgeable in it.
Naomi said: “I must say right off that one's experience
with prayer and understanding of what prayer is or what
prayer can accomplish depends on one's level of
religious understanding and one's relationship to God.”
I fully and totally agree, Naomi. But my guess is that my agreeing with you would not be agreeing with what you “meant”. I really appreciate that you asked some great questions. I really would like to respond to each of these but I am concerned about doing so. I know that my responses to these great questions will be different than yours, and my concern is that my responses will be read with judgment and prejudice.
Even though we live in a free, democratic society, my beliefs and my type of faith are still shunned, looked down upon and considered to be “wrong”. Again this is sad!!!
Linda Bennett, my dear, long time faithful friend
said: “We cannot understand all that God is and I don’t
find creation any more perplexing than evolution so I’m
going to stick with creation. I have seen God work in
my life and I am grateful for my Christian upbringing. To
answer your question, my interpretation of prayer is
simply communicating with God, petitioning, praising,
and giving thanks with the conviction that God is
listening.”
I too find both perplexing but sticking with one or the other eliminates too much for me. I too am grateful for my Christian indoctrination, and I am equally grateful for being given the openness to see other “ways” as well. Linda’s definition of Pray was great and I speak for Bud I am sure, when I say, “at least we got a definition”.
Charlene Pearce…………I say to you, GO
GIRL!!!
Gary Gardner said: “Too often people on both sides of
such questions have their mind made up and dismiss
any view that doesn't fit their own philosophy. It may be
possible to force or coerce religion on someone, but you
can't really change a person's faith that way. Dialogue
like the one Bud started is a huge step toward
understanding each other, and I thank you for taking that
step. I'm still learning, and hope I continue to do so”.
I say to GARY: THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
Bonnie Stuchell said: God Bless you and may Jesus
be glorified in everything that you do!!!
Again I am sure I speak for Bud in saying, your offering was lovely and heart felt, but again, we are not seeking salvation, just definition.
AND MOST OF ALL TO BUD……….
As I have said, you are a BRAVE MAN. So often I too wanted to open this forum up, hoping to get a dialogue going but I chickened out. It's reminiscent of the stoning of witches in Salem, Massachusetts. I had to offer my 25 cents here as I could not continue to see you stoned without speaking up. You opening this up personifies what Bob Chell, of the University Lutheran Center, in South Dakota State University said:
"In the Bible, the ones who were most certain about what they were doing were the ones who stoned the prophets."
Hope to hear from EVERYONE!!!
Love & Peace to ALL.
Bonnie wrote:
Hi Judy,
I realize everyone has a choice,and I certainly respect yours. But I would be careful in speaking for other people because you really do not know for sure what they are thinking or what God is doing in the spirit with them. I respect everyone and again, we were given the privilege to have and make our own choices. People cannot change someone and I would not expect to make anyone do what they feel is not right for them. I just wanted to speak the truth and back God's word with bible verses which anyone can look up and check out for themselves if they wish. I love you all and it is such a blessing we can still communicate with each other after all these years and I hope it keeps going.
Judy wrote:
Bonnie,
Thanks and point well taken!!! See you soon.
Bud wrote:
Holy Shamoly! I believe Judy has stepped out of the closet. Feels good, doesn't it Jude? Yeah, but scary too. These classmates have been life-long friends of yours and I know you don't want to ruffle feathers or disappoint anyone. Such a proclamation is always risky because it can sometimes sour relationships. Of course it doesn't have to. I've had (and still have) many dear friends over the years who know how I feel about religion but it's not been an issue for us. I've never concealed my beliefs (lack thereof?) from them because I've never felt the need to. But I don't wear it on my sleeve, either. I've never been ashamed of who I am and since I don't normally feel persecuted, I don't have to get defensive.
My highly Christian brother-in-law has said that he is disappointed we won't be able to join him in heaven. Well, I'm certainly not! I like it here and don't want to go anywhere else. Truth be told, I'd like to be laid out in the woods when my days are done. As my body feeds the flora and fauna, I will have completed a worthwhile cycle. Dust to dust... recycling, if you will. My remains will nourish the living, allowing me to continue my presence on this earth.
So Judy, just as we want to be accepted by our Christian friends and family, we need to fully accept them as well. It doesn't have to be us against them or them against us. Life's too short for that kind of crap. Live and let live. Do unto others...and all that.
Oh, and hey! Welcome to the fraternity of the unfettered and free. We're thrilled to have you among us.
Judy wrote:
OH MY GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!
Now I am concerned that I might have offended or caused ill feelings. If I did that, please forgive me, which was NOT AT ALL my intent what so ever!!!! I too feel that it's not "us against them", and never in a million years would I want my faith, opinions, or beliefs to appear as such. So if what I said sounded defensive or argumentative, forgive me all!!!
Gee, have I been in the closet? Like you Bud I have never felt like I needed to wear my beliefs on my sleeve, proclaim them, or look around to ruffle any peace and calm. I feel secure in my faith and it's MY way in life only!
Sometimes in situations such as these, where someone attempts to communicate a different point of view and is not heard for what they are saying, I simply can not allow them to stand alone when I too have a different point of view, for I know that I appreciate allies when I am professing my point.
We all grew up in an environment that was prominently Christian, where by many kids now a days are surrounded by many faiths. Hopefully the upcoming generations will be more acceptant of others beliefs and we will not need to be so afraid as well as open to having such discussions as this.
It’s always sad for me when I choose to speak out and proclaim my point of view and people walk away, shut up, and simply don’t even want to hear. It’s ONLY a point of view, a discussion, a belief, and in reality not a great deal different than “theirs, when it comes down to the nitty gritty. I still am that same “trouble” maker I have always been, as well as the same sharing, caring, loving person I have always been.
Thanks for joining in, and for your friendships!
Love and Peace to all.
Char wrote:
A true Christian will not judge nor hate their neighbor simply because their views are different on this subject. We all the have the freedom to express our beliefs. But from a Christian point of view, Christ commands us to live our lives for Him and to go out into the world and proclaim His word. So please don't take our expressions of faith, beliefs, or trust in God, as ridiculing those with different opinions. God made each of us, and He loves us all the same. I know the original question did have to with prayer, but clearly we have gotten into a much deeper discussion, and there is nothing wrong with that either. So I would like to start another topic. "What do you believe happens to a person when they die?" I have witnessed people dying and watch them talking about seeing Heaven as it is described in the Bible. My own father died on a operating table and spoke of the beautiful colors and bright lights. He was brought back to life and lived 61 years after that. I believe what my father told me. I had an Aunt die with her daughter at her side, and she to was describing heaven as she was passing from this life.into eternity. These are just a couple of examples I have personally known of. These were people on their death bed or in my fathers case, very close to death. I can't believe these people would be just throwing things out there at these times when their last moments on earth were coming to an end.I also witnessed a dear friend last week to cancer and definitely watch how Christ was with her as she passed into heaven. It is hard to explain in words what she looked like, but her body was empty of her spirit. This happened immediately after our Pastor prayed with her and read Psalm 23 to her. She had been moaning all afternoon and as soon as he finished reading her the bible, she stopped the moaning and became quiet, within 5 minutes she stopped breathing. But what was so awesome was what I saw afterwards. Her spirit had left her body, it was just so clear to see that. So if someone wants to comment on this topic I am listening. Take care everyone.
Bud wrote:
I guess this conversation has come to it's natural culmination. There's really nothing left to be said here.
Nonetheless, I'm gonna toss off one last observation. I once read a book called Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time by Michael Shermer. I highly recommend it. The bottom line is that people believe strange things because it makes them feel good. They think, "I'd like to believe that...(whatever)". And so they do. It's called a designer truth, tailored for their own comfort.
It seems increasingly the case that there's no such thing as the truth. Rather, we have "truths". We choose the one we need, based on which best validates our preferred worldview. We get these truths from media sources that manufacture them according to political alliances and warn against trusting truth that comes from ideologically impure sources.
Once upon a time , we all drew upon a common pool of facts. You might interpret them differently than I do, but we could have an honest disagreement because the facts themselves were not in contention. The thing is, facts that really "are" facts, truth that really "is" truth, doesn't always validate our beliefs. Sometimes it challenges and confounds our beliefs. That can be a problem.
Designer facts are easy to accept because they are soothing, because they are predictable, because they don't make us think - only react. But they also leave us talking past each other because we no longer operate from the same assumptions or speak the same language. You may think that the situation is "this" and I may think that the situation is "that", but if we can't even agree on what "this and that" are, we can't have the argument. We have no basis for conversation.
What we no longer seem to have is the concept that decent people could interpret the same objective, verifiable facts differently and have an honest disagreement about them. But now we have facts created for us according to our politics. Now we have "truth" that belongs in quotation marks.
And the result is predictable, isn't it? We still have plenty of disagreement, but there's nothing honest about it. Our beliefs are merely conjecture.
Judy wrote:
Bud said:
"It seems increasingly the case that there's no such thing as the truth. Rather, we have "truths," separate but equal. We choose the one we need, based on which best validates our preferred worldview. We get these truths from media sources that manufacture them according to our political alliances and warn in dire tones against trusting truth that comes from ideologically impure sources. Designer facts are easy because they are soothing, because they are predictable, because they never make you think, only react. But they also leave us talking past each other because we no longer operate from the same assumptions or speak the same language."
I really like this paragraph, for me it says it all. I believe that we have come to a point where it's ABSOLUTELY necessary to be more open to others views, others ideas, others rituals, and others beliefs..........our existence as we know it needs this. Not to sway others over to “our side”, but to no longer live in righteousness, judgment, prejudice, or assuming about another person. We must give up our need to be "right", or for "power", and just let it be “ours”, not “theirs”. I am sharing a link to a book which is NOT for purpose of promoting the book, but for purpose of reading the insert..... Read it with fun and hope to hear from YOU. Judy - http://www.jakekalish.com/
Naomi wrote:
Bud & Judy,
You are both absolutely right about one thing in particular: There can be no proving anything to anyone absolutely. But there is more to it, Bud, than believing something because we want to. What is it that makes us want to believe something? Why do we have to believe anything? We can get really spacey and recognize that even deciding not to believe is believing something – i.e. nothing. But who can prove any of it? None of us can.
And there is a verse of Scripture that addresses that issue. Hebrews 11: 1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Whatever it is we decide to believe, we make that decision by faith. That is, there is something about the “truth” we are recognizing that triggers an emotional and an intellectual response in us that causes us to accept the validity of that truth.But in addition to that fact is another obligation we must recognize. When we accept any fact or truth, we do so on the basis of authority. When you say there are many “truths,” upon whose authority do you base that assumption? I accept the authority of the Bible as the inspired Word of God to mankind. And in doing that I must reject all teaching that is contrary to the teaching of that book. Judy, if we give up the need to be right, we give up the ability to accomplish anything in life.
Another verse of Scripture asks: How can two walk together unless they agree? In order for any society, any community of man, to exist, the people that join together must agree on what is right for them and what is wrong. They must decide who will lead and who will follow. And they must agree on how each will fulfill his function and what will be accomplished in so doing.
If we all decide that no course of action is any better than any other course, we end up believing nothing and coming to an end as an organized community. Take illegal immigration, for example. Either it makes sense to allow it, or it doesn't. What are the pros and cons of each position? What are the challenges, the difficulties, and the blessings? If we were to decide that it doesn't matter what we believe, we would do nothing, and the USA would collapse from its own inability to resolve issues.
Religious faith requires the same necessity to act. We do not believe merely to believe. We believe because we must. And what we believe determines what we do. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that he came into the world to save people from sin. I believe that only accepting Christ will enable me to spend eternity in heaven with him. I believe that everyone in the world who refuses to accept these truths will spend eternity in hell without him. I believe these things, because the Bible tells me they are true.
So what does my belief obligate me to do? I must convince others to accept my belief system –by faith. I can’t prove anything by any measure that would be accepted in a court of law. But I must attempt to win others to my belief. That doesn't mean I hate those who disagree. It doesn't mean I have the right to disdain, belittle or disregard them or their ideas. But I must reject their beliefs that are based on a different authority than mine.
A verse in the Book of Judges says, “In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.”
There was no authority to establish right or wrong, so everyone decided for themselves. I ask once again, upon what or whose authority does each of us decide what to believe? I accept the authority of the Bible. Someone else may accept the Koran or the Book of Mormon or the Bhagavad-Gita. I respect them all, but I am persuaded by faith that they are wrong, and I must seek to show them why. If they choose to disagree, I do not despise them. But I feel a great sense of loss, because I know, based on what I believe by faith that they will go to hell when they die. I cannot say I believe the Bible and continue to assume that people who disagree with me will be OK according to their own belief system. Faith is a closed system. If we accept everything, we believe nothing. And, yes, that is a belief that is accepted by faith.
I have accepted the Bible as the substance and evidence of my faith. It is as simple as that. Hope that this continues the discussion.
Char wrote:
I'd rather go through life accepting what the Bible teaches, believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Living my life the way the Bible teaches me to live. And in the end what do I have to loose? If I choose not to follow God and His ways and in the end, do I take the chance that there is no heaven but rather spend eternity in hell?? Sorry, everyone I choose to follow the one only true God and plan on spending eternity in Heaven with my Lord and Savior and my love ones who have gone on before me.
And like Naomi mention, we can't make you accept the Bible or faith in God, and dislike you because you don't agree with us. However, but not agreeing with opposite views does not make us weak or idiots. I choose to love you all whether you agree with my views.
Garry wrote:
Separate but equal truths? I think the situation can be illustrated by this excerpt:
HOUSTON -- The main ingredient in some home remedies is a substance that can leave those who take it with irreversible brain damage.
In Houston neighborhoods, little children are at risk from killers that don’t look dangerous.
And they’re pretty too: They’re orange and red, UT Health Science Center Dr. Lynette Mazur said.
They are poisonous powders. One of the most common is called greta, given for years by Latina mothers to their children.
They are mothers with the best of intentions, trying to bring comfort to a colicky baby or to a first-grader with a stomachache. But the home remedies they’re using contain something that is the last thing you’d want to give to a child. Eighty to 90 percent of that powder is lead, nurse Judy Zoch said. She works for the Harris County Health Department.
She wouldn't touch a tube of greta without putting on her gloves it’s that dangerous.
The orange powder, what some consider a cure for stomach trouble and have given their children, is almost pure lead.
They are treating their child with something that they've been told cures what ails them, she said. And it does cure what ails them, but it leaves them with something far worse. Lead poisoning can kill you, Dr. Mazur said.
(Full article at http://www.khou.com/news/local/houstonmetro/stories/khou0802
21_ac_homeremedies.151f76d6.html)
Popular religion can be like popular medicine - It's pretty, it makes you feel good, and everyone seems to be doing it. Unfortunately you can't take it to a chemical lab and find out what it's made of. A superficial look may say "Take whatever works for you--Tums, Pepcid, Tagamet, Greta-- separate but equal remedies." But knowledge of the facts are essential if you want a genuine remedy. That's where Naomi's point comes in. Faith needs to be based on Fact, not Feelings. And when a person makes a sincere effort to find real truth, they will. C. S. Lewis, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel and a host of others found their lives changed when they tried to disprove Christianity and were convinced of its truth.
Bud wrote:
Naomi,
You certainly are well spoken and that goes a long way toward clarifying your views. But your eloquence is no substitute for credence in your attempt to validate those views. You say your "truth" is based on the authority of a book that is a collection of stories passed down from generation to generation during a period of history when superstition took precedence over science. If you are a member of an extended family, you've probably witnessed the family folklore take on more and more color at each retelling. And nothing beats a good ghost story to widen a child's eyes. So, this book is your authority? That's a dubious source of truth and wisdom, I would think.
And you say you must reject all other notions because faith is a closed system. Well, it certainly is! It's closed to reason, closed to logic, closed, even, to any kind of debate.
Also, what I find truly astonishing is that you feel blessed by a "loving" and "perfect" creator who asks only to be worshiped, praised and paid plenty, a deity who guides your life and controls your destiny, decides when and how your life will end, and stands ready to punish those who fail in their subservience to him. Wow! Am I missing something here? This mythical dictator sounds like bad news to me. People who welcome that kind of "help" in their lives are merely victims of possession. It would appear that you don't own yourself anymore. You've given yourself up to an outlandish premise. And it's pathetic.
Garry,
Your story about the mother feeding poison to her children is a perfect illustration of someone making false assumptions based on faith. The young mother was led to believe that this medicine was good for her children. She had faith. What confounds me about this faith is that even though it makes things demonstrably worse for children, these practices persist...because of faith! I put it in the same category as the horrific practice of trying to heal a child with prayer when the child should be getting medical attention. As I said earlier, no amount of sincerity or conscientiousness can make up for not having facts. These faiths fail again and again, yet they persist because people want to believe so desperately that they are valid.
You said that faith needs to be based on facts, not feelings, and I couldn't agree more. As an intelligent man, surely you know that faith and fact have nothing in common. By definition, faith is an unquestioned belief in the unverifiable. Fact, on the other hand, is based on evidence and has no association or applications within the realm of faith.
And Garry, you allude to people who have tried to disprove Christianity and ended up convinced of it's truth. Does that give credibility to the paranormal? Of course not! Faith has no basis in fact.
Naomi wrote:
Yes, Bud,
The Bible is a collection of writings penned by some 40 authors over a period of some 1500 years. And yet there is an amazing consistency and clearly thought out progression of detail throughout. And by faith I accept its statement that all of it was inspired by God so that the writers communicated exactly that information that God wanted presented. Your representation of the character and attitude of God does not match the presentation of Scripture. The description you provide is the usual diatribe of those who have already made up their minds that whatever they believe is true, so long as it doesn't force them to be accountable to God. Bud, I cannot begin to fathom what experiences in your life may have led you to develop the philosophy that you have. But it is obvious that an exchange of emails cannot hope to bridge the gap that divides our points of view.
I do not feel controlled by any premise; I do not fear punishment from anyone if I should falter, let alone from God. Are you missing something here? Yes, I believe you are. I referred to faith previously. I add to the Hebrews quotation the 6th verse of chapter 11: "Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." God is not the cosmic killjoy that modern critics claim. Of all the major religions of the world, Christianity is the most reasonable. If you sincerely studied it for the purpose of discovering truth, you would find it logical. The Bible dose not defy science, reason, or logic. It defies unbelief.
Yes, faith is a closed system. So is truth. So are facts. No matter what kind of new math we might seek to apply, 2 + 2 does not equal 5 or 11 or any other number than 4. It is an exclusive absolute truth. Any attempt to prove otherwise or to apply any "what if's" to the problem are mere conjectures designed to deny the exclusivity of the truth. One more passage of Scripture: 1 Corinthians 2: 14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." The only people who have trouble believing the Bible are those who refuse to believe it. How closed is that?
By the way, you say, "Faith has no basis in fact." That is not entirely accurate. It depends on what one's faith is in, or to what it is attached. There is more fact and truth in the Christian faith than decriers are willing to admit. Have you ever read "The Genesis Flood" by John Whitcomb and Henry Morris? In reality, Bud, there is more honest, scientific evidence for the creation of the earth and all life in it by direct act of God in six days than there is for any degree of evolution. Both ideas require faith to accept as both theories are totally unobservable. But an honest examination of the facts will require one to accept the Bible over Darwin.
I do appreciate your dialogue. Take care.
Garry wrote:
I think we're getting closer to the core issues here. Bud, you speak of Faith and Fact as though they are opposites. This does not jive with my understanding of Faith. I think a better description of Faith is a belief based on a logical extension of observed facts. As you pointed out earlier, the way the facts are interpreted can vary greatly. Like the six blind men and the elephant (http://homepage.usask.ca/~wae123/misc/prose/hinustan.htm) there's a lot of disagreement about the true nature of things. If the six "wise" men were to listen to each other they would all benefit.
In our discussion there are two fundamental assumptions that are at odds with one another. There is the Carl Sagan view that says, "The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be" and the view of the Psalmist David that says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands".
Many in the scientific community have adopted the first assumption, although there is no scientific reason for doing so. This is at the center of the currently hot topic of Intelligent Design. The Sagan idea is so firmly entrenched that highly credentialed and experienced scientists are blackballed because they choose to look outside the box of empiricism.
So what we have is not a disagreement between Faith and Fact, but between Faith and Faith. When I look at the cosmos I see abundant evidence of a creative intelligence. And when I look at history, human nature, society and the lives of many people I have known, I find them to be in harmony with the Biblical description of reality. That is not to say I understand all of it in every detail, or have an answer to every objection. But I believe that God as revealed in the Bible is the same as God revealed in nature, and that there is ultimately no disharmony between the two.
The empirical model is extremely valuable and has done much to advance our understanding of nature, but we need to recognize that it has its limits, and we cannot say with certainty that there is nothing beyond it.
Finally, you said "you allude to people who have tried to disprove Christianity and ended up convinced of it's truth. Does that really lend any credibility to the paranormal? Of course not! Faith has no basis in fact."
All three of the people I named have written extensively on the factual evidence that led them to their conclusions. I won't try to parrot their research. Look up their names on Amazon and pick a title that intrigues you. Here's a suggestion for starters:
http://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/0
842345523
Bud wrote:
This lunge and parry is getting tedious. I seem to be beating my head against a wall.
In the past, people have asked me why I should care whether folks carry this burden of dogma. Well, maybe I wouldn't care...if they seemed content, peaceful and kind to their fellow man. But quite often, religion comes bundled in a package that includes bigotry (homophobia, racism, etc.) and inhumanity to those who don't mesh with their ideals. They often think they know what's best for everyone and would gladly impose their wills to ensure compliance with their "standards".
I must say, however, that Naomi and Garry have not displayed any of that behavior here. But I'd venture a wager that it's lurking somewhere under the surface. Witness the reference to "illegal aliens".
I don't claim to know a lot of people but most of the Christians I do know seem quite troubled and ill at ease to me. I usually detect a note of sadness and despair. I know I shouldn't stereotype but this seems to be a recurring theme among the faithful. It breaks my heart to see them suffering but still my anti-dogma message finds only deaf ears. A pity, I think, since things don't have to be that way.
My mistrust of religion manifests mainly because bigotry, wickedness, inhumanity and willful ignorance have marked most of the world's religions throughout history. Religion has posed as a benefactor of mankind but under it's facade of virtue and holiness, it is in reality full of hypocrisy and lies. More often than not, it's a destructive force in people's lives.
It would be good if, in time, every kind of religious belief would die out as we become more enlightened and civilized. This would be a good step toward a lasting solution to most of mankind's problems.
When religion isn't encouraging strife it's acting as a drug which numbs the human conscience and fills the brain with escapist fantasies. It often causes humans to be narrow, superstitious, and full of hatred and fear.
To a large extent, religion - defined as "the service and worship of a god or the supernatural" - has a shocking record. Allegedly, it's supposed to enlighten and inspire us. More often than not, however, it engenders strife.
I wish we could lift ourselves up out of those dark ages. I think it's time to sober up, grow up, wipe the sleep from our eyes and get started on the business of making this world a better place. One of the first things we need to do is recognize the folly of our pathetic superstitions and break the chains of religion. World peace is impossible otherwise. But alas, my message tumbles along with the wind, never finding fertile soil.
Linda wrote:
Unions! People keep telling me Unions are what is wrong with this country - I'm glad to find out it is something else.
Bud, there are happy Christians out there, could it be you choose not to see them?
Sharon G. wrote:
WHERE WOULD WE BE IF EVERYONE AGREED ON EVERY THING . READING ALL THAT HAS BE WRITTEN AND KNOWING A LOT OF YOUR VIEWS, DOES NOT CHANGE MY OPINIONS ON ANY OF YOU. "CHRISTIANITY ' IS A STRONG WORD. AND I CAN SEE THAT A LOT OF US VIEW IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS. HOWEVER, IT WOULD NEVER CHANGE THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT ANYONE JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEVES. JUST BE HAPPY AND LIVE FOR WHAT YOU HAVE.
Garry wrote:
Dictionary.com defines religion as "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."
This encompasses not only the God/gods centered beliefs, but also Atheism, Nazism, Humanism, "New Age", astrology, and a host of other beliefs. And I submit that Bud's observation that "bigotry, wickedness, inhumanity and willful ignorance have marked..." all of them to one degree or another. There's a lot that goes on in the name of religion, and specifically of "Christianity" that is a cover or excuse for something that is foreign to true biblical religion. James 1:27 says: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." In a nutshell, Holy living before God and loving compassion toward our fellow man. He's echoing the word of Jesus who said the greatest commandments were to love God (which implies obedience) and love your neighbor (including your personal enemies).
A lot of what poses as Christianity is really commentary on these core values. Jesus himself was extremely harsh on the religious hypocrites that put all their focus on outward practices and missed the central point (even harsher than Bud!). See Matthew 23:13-33. But the answer is not in throwing out religion, because even "unreligious" people have
"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe", which is a religion. Bud is proposing a Lennonistic (That's John Lennon, not Vladimer Lenin) solution that offers no more hope for world peace than the religions he decries. Lennon admitted he couldn't live up to his mantra of "imagine no possessions". His "nutopia" of "no religion", "no hell", "only sky above us", is all imagination. They're teaching that in our schools today and the result is not a "brotherhood of man" with "nothing to kill or die for", but an increase in violence and despair in our society.
Bud's observation is right in that religion as he describes it cannot bring world peace. The problem lies within each and every person on earth, that we have a tendency to please ourselves at the expense of others. Evolutionists call it "survival of the fittest." And the best that outward religion can do, whether it is the noble eight-fold path, the ten commandments, or "sober up, grow up, wipe the sleep from our eyes", is to show us that our own efforts, noble as they may be, are insufficient. That's where faith comes into the picture. Not a mindless adherence to unproven dogma, but a trust built on evidence that there is a God who can and has stepped into human lives and turned them from despair to joy.
* lyrics here: http://www.lyricsdomain.com/10/john_lennon/imagine.html
Bud wrote:
"WHERE WOULD WE BE IF EVERYONE AGREED ON EVERY THING ."
Well, we'd be in perfect alignment. There would be harmony. We would all aspire toward a common goal for the benefit of all mankind. We'd understand and appreciate each other. We'd cooperate with one another and we'd regard every human as a family member. There would be mutual respect for all people. War would become obsolete since there would no longer be reasons for fighting.
Is this notion idealistic? Of course it is. Could it ever happen? Probably not in our lifetimes. But I have hope that as this world becomes smaller, humans will develop a commonality and differences will become less and less.
Imagine!
"Not a mindless adherence to unproven dogma, but a trust built on evidence that there is a God who can and has stepped into human lives and turned them from despair to joy."
C'mon, Garry, you know damned well that there is no evidence of the supernatural. That's why it requires faith. And your description of religion turning people's lives from despair to joy demonstrates the ill-conceived concept of religion as medicine. If a person is struggling with despair, shouldn't the cause of that despair be addressed? Treating despair with faith is just treating symptoms rather than repairing the problem. Let's face it, religion is a crutch for those who feel helpless to resolve their own personal malaise. It's a mental illness afflicting those who are so dis-satisfied with their lives, they pretend that there is a better place known as heaven. Religion is a convenient way to solve a coping problem.
But...John Lennon also said, "Whatever gets you through the night...".
Obviously, religion brings comfort to many and it may be a less harmful medication than alcohol, apathy, or thumb sucking.
I'll never understand it. But I truly wish you all well.
Gary T. wrote:
Hey everyone. I just found out about this sight thru my cousin and have been reading (or trying to read thru all the posts here), which, btw, is very tedious. BTW, I'm not the shy, withdrawn person I was in school. I'm actually pretty out spoken about what I feel and most find me a bit controversial. My spelling leaves a lot to be desired though, so please excuse that. One thing that did catch my eye was the question about when God (which I see most of you don't believe) will and can heal cancer. A close friend of ours, his father in law, was recently diagnose with colon cancer. When they put him thru the tests they found out it had spread thru out his whole body. That's when my wife and I started praying for him. We were very diligent in praying every day and telling the cancer to shrivel up and die in Jesus name. Well he went back for tests and the doctors were in shock. The doctors found out that all the cancer cells were dead. So if you don't want to believe God is real and He answers those who call on Him, just give me your number and I'll let you talk to the guy. I couldn't imagine going thru my whole life and not having any hope and thinking this is all there is.
Bud wrote:
Eureka! You've discovered a cure for cancer! You're gonna be rich, man. Unless someone has already beaten you to the patent office. I hope not.
You've got quite an imagination. Even my Christian brethren are rolling their collective eyes.
If your friend's father-in-law had died, would you have thought, "Lord, why have you forsaken me?" Or would you have thought, "It's God's will. He must have wanted him."
I have a feeling it would be the latter. Man, that Dude's lucky. He wins either way!
By the way, why wouldn't you have any hope? Do you need religion for hope? And what's wrong with what we have here on earth? Is this life not good enough for you?
Gary T. wrote:
Hey Bud, I only wish there was a cure for cancer. I was just reciting what the Doctor told the guy. Hey, the guy was ready to die. I'd be jumping up and down and thanking God that he gave me a second lease on life. Normally when cancer finds its way thru your whole body you're done for it. This guy that it happened to isn't a Christian, at least a practicing Christian. He's just someone who the Doctors didn't have much hope for. He had the Chemo implanted in him, but only for a very short time. Hope comes from know that you have someone to trust when something is not humanly possible. If you can only trust in the medical profession, you're in trouble.BTW, I can't stand religious stuff. I could understand why most people wouldn't want to follow God if they're looking at what they see today. Who would want to be part of a bunch of religious ceremonies and dogma.
Bud wrote:
Gary,
I'm sorry I was tough with you. I guess my civility is starting to wear thin. Maybe it's time for me to bow out of this seemingly endless dust-up.
People develop their beliefs over a long period of time and some crank rattling their cage will have little effect on that. I've presented my thoughts on the subject and there's not much else to say here. So I think I'll withdraw from this thread. I'm neither winning friends nor influencing people. Time to go.
Thanks for the invigorating exchange, all. It was great sport.
Peace.
Gary T. wrote:
no problem, we're each entitled to our own views.
Garry wrote
I agree with Bud. [GASP].
To be more precise, I agree that this thread is getting pretty well worn and it's probably time to set it aside. But I do feel compelled to respond to his final comments to me.
"C'mon, Gary, you know darned well that there is no evidence of the supernatural. "
Yeah, that's what Josh McDowell said before he looked for evidence against the supernatural. Same with Lee Strobel. Now if you were to say "No PROOF of the supernatural" might agree with you. There is no definitive "proof" for either the existence or non-existence of the supernatural. But the evidence is there for you to evaluate, one way or another, if you look for it.
"And your description of religion turning people's lives from despair to joy demonstrates the concept of religion as medicine. If a person is struggling with despair, shouldn't the cause of that despair be addressed?"
Correction: I never said that religion can turn people's lives from despair to joy--the credit goes to God. Allow me one example. Fifteen years ago my friend Lalo was a hard drinking, pot-smoking, prostitute-visiting carouser. His wife said she'd have killed him if she thought she could get away with it. He spent all his money on his indulgences, leaving almost nothing for his four kids. (Bud asks "And what's wrong with what we have here? Is this life not good enough for you?") There was plenty wrong with what Lalo had, but he refused to see it until his son got picked up on a marijuana charge. That's when he went to church with his wife and asked God to forgive him and help him turn his life around. When his second daughter heard about it she said "Yeah, right. I'll give him two weeks." He's still on track over ten years later.
Today people find it hard to believe the life that Lalo used to live. His nickname at work is "Smiley" because of the joy that spontaneously flows from him. Ask him why he's so happy and he'll say "It's the Lord." (Bud asks " Do you need religion for that? ") Again, it's not religion, it's God. And Lalo will tell you that without God he could not make that change on his own. Only the power of God could do it.
"Treating despair with faith is just treating the symptoms rather than repairing the problem."
No, it was only through faith in God (not religion) that Lalo was able to address and repair the problem. The drug and alcohol abuse and broken family relationships were not the problem. They were symptoms of a deeper problem, a spiritual problem that cannot be corrected by human effort alone.
"Let's face it, religion is a crutch for those who feel helpless to resolve their own personal malaise. Religion is a convenient way to solve a coping problem."
When you break a leg, you need a crutch. But God is much more than a one-time fix to temporary problem. Some people turn to God when they need a crutch, and find that he not only helps, he heals, strengthens, directs and empowers those who are willing to follow him.
Judy wrote:
Hey all, I am about to drop off line for a month and could not do so without adding my 3 cents here.
All things are relative, it really does not matter what you believe, BECAUSE: We can NOT GO BACK and redo something to see if "that other thing" would have worked too. Nor can we go back and “NOT do something” to see how it might have come out either. So, if you get comfort and solace from praying and or believing it was God that cured the problem that is wonderful. BUT the fact remains there is no way to prove that what you did or did not do or what you believed or did not believe was the reason it worked, something else might have worked too; we will never know.
There simply is no way for any of us to know that "my way" is the better way for you, because how would “I” know what’s better for "YOU" or you for me. For me, I just do not want to fear that YOU will try and convert me, or try to prove me wrong. And you too, do not want me to try and convert you or try to prove you wrong. As someone said, it makes no difference what you believe, who you are, or what your life style is, if you’re my friend, YOU’RE MY FRIEND, regardless of beliefs, present life style, or passed transgressions.
Thanks Bud for your willingness to offer your side for this difficult subject. You obviously did not have any allies that were willing to voice their views, so I just want to commend you for holding your own.
It simply is about CHOICE!! “THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE”. Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, Ancient Indian, Atheism, or what ever……… It’s all choice!
Peace, Love, and "Acceptance to All".
Marie wrote:
Judy, I read this posting and thought back to your response to Bud and just wanted to say I really identified with what he said and respected the time he spent discussing his ideas with Naomi and Gary. I feel that it may be too late (in terms of time passed) to say how I agree with him however; Bud, if you're reading this I admire your writing ability and dedication to expressing your thoughts.
Judy wrote:
Marie,
That was a belated but very thoughtful gesture to Bud. Thanks for offering your support of such a difficult subject. Maybe some time we can open this up again........Bud???
Bud wrote:
Judy, Marie,
I'm sorry I'm so late responding to your posts. Apparently, the site mechanism that notifies us of a response doesn't always work.
Marie - Thank you for the compliment but moreover, thank you for expressing support for my often unpopular views. It's a breath of fresh air. Sometimes I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness so your support is very much appreciated.
Judy - I'm not averse to reopening this dialog - but only if it can breathe and grow in a different direction. I'd be afraid it would turn into the same tired contest and that just isn't progressive.
If someone has ideas that haven't been beaten to death here already, please interject. There's no such thing as the last word.
Thanks, guys.
Judy wrote:
Sharon Shorter died Tue., Nov. 11, at Lower Cape Fear Hospice Care Center. In lieu of flowers, please make contributions to Lower Cape Fear Hospice Care Center, 1406 Physicians Drive, Wilmington, NC 28401. A memorial service to be announced at a later date. Her daughter Wendy Shorter-Bridges has sent this note to us:
My mom passed away on the 11th of this month. She fought till the end and even had another chemo treatment the Monday before I had to take her to hospice. I was with her. I know she really enjoyed catching up with everyone on the class site and had fun posting all the stuff she did. She would copy me on a bunch of pictures she posted. We did not have a service because she asked not to have one. She had breast cancer that spread to the liver and bones. I don't have any recent photos because she hated taking photos. I only have one of her and I that was taken at my high school graduation. I can tell you that she is one of the strongest people that I have ever know. She had been through so much in her life and it was cut short by cancer. She was young and eager to live and stuck with it until the end. She was even suppose to go on a trip to Africa in October but she took a turn for the worse and had to cancel her trip. She enjoyed every minute on the class site and would call me to let me know what was going on. I had all of her photos at my house and she had asked me to get them out so she could share them with her class. She was very sick when she was posting all the stuff she did but never led anyone on to know how sick she really was; even me. There are not enough words to describe what a unique person she really was. I am going to miss her very much; she was the person that I went to for all my questions and just to talk to. She was a great woman. Thank you, Wendy.
Bud wrote:
Thank you, Judy. This is hard news for me. Even though I didn't know Sharon very well in school, we had lately developed a kinship while corresponding about our similar cancer treatments. At first she seemed very brave but resigned to her fate. But then I started to see a glimmer of hope in her about the possibility of surviving this ordeal. Yeah, she fought hard. And it breaks my heart to see all that noble effort unrewarded. She really deserved to win. I'm so disappointed. It also hurts to know how disappointed her family must be.
Life can be tragic. Many are born so that a few might survive. It might be easier if we didn't become so attached to one another, but really - what kind of life would that be?
I hope she left this mortal coil knowing the world is better for her having been here. It is.
Good night, sweet princess. Rest. -Bud
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